Episode Description
In a relationship that lasts decades, where the dynamic shifts so deeply, it’s easy to think we know each other. But how well do parents and adult children actually know each other? In this episode, we test our knowledge of each other’s lives and encourage listeners to make some space to release their ‘roles’ of parent/child and get to know each other as humans…all over again.
“What this recognizes is really how much the dynamic between parents and their kids shifts from birth to later phases of life. Really interestingly, by the time we get where we get and where we are, you know, Dad, we’ve had a lot of miles on the road together.”
AMY GOING HAWORTH
Resources Mentioned in this Episode
Nobody Makes It Alone: www.nobodymakesitalone.com
Other (potentially) Useful Links
We suggest infusing a little gratitude into your day. Here’s a way to begin from Mindful.org: https://www.mindful.org/an-introduction-to-mindful-gratitude/
Transcript
Patrick:
Hello, welcome to Going Older. I’m Pat Going.
Amy:
And I’m Amy Going Haworth.
Patrick:
This is a podcast about aging from the perspectives of two generations. This podcast tackles what we’re talking about as it relates to living life well.
Amy:
And it seeks to bring the conversations we’re having as parent and child into the open so we can all learn together.
Patrick:
On today’s episode, we’re diving into the nuanced dynamics of parent-child relationships in a particular time horizon, where there are adult, midlife kids, and senior parents.
Amy:
But what this recognizes is really how much the dynamic between parents and their kids shifts from birth to later phases of life. Really interestingly, by the time we get where we get and where we are, you know, Dad, we’ve had a lot of miles on the road together. And when we think about our ages, I’m midlife and you’re a little later than midlife. But we’ve done a lot together and the relationship that we’ve had has changed a lot. So in many relationships between parents and kids, by the time they are where we are, there have been some hard times as well as some really great times. And hopefully there’s also been some forgiveness and some humility. So whatever the case is, when we reach this point, it might just be a healthy moment for everybody to take a pause. Just create some space to renew what we know about each other because all those years that we’ve spent together as parents and kids, it can make it really easy to take things for granted. So as we begin today, I’m excited, number one, to spend this time really seeing each other in a slightly new way. and maybe even giving some detail to the hazy understanding we have about each other’s current day-to-day and existence. And I truly hope that this is inspiration for other parent-kid partnerships to do the same. So, thank you. We’re happy to share our conversation with all of you and really see it as an invitation, please, for everyone just to take that moment to renew what you think you know about each other.
Patrick:
Well, this is going to be so interesting and I’m so intrigued because we don’t really have a script on this. And I’m curious on where we’re going to go and how we’re going to end up. So let me kick this off, Amy.What do you tell people when they say, gee, Amy, what do your parents do now that they’re retired?
Amy:
Well, the first thing I find myself saying to those questions, and actually they do come a lot. What do your parents do now? What are they up to? Mostly from people who know you and Mom or knew you at one time. Because the reputation that you both have is that you’re very active, you’re typically involved in some interesting things. And so what I typically say is, well, they’re having a lot of fun. They play a lot of Pickleball. My dad is involved in the community. He’s doing some volunteer work for a period of time. He was on the governor’s task force for people with disabilities. I don’t even know if that’s true anymore. And I bring up some of the things that you get excited about, like last summer. you were part of a community garden at your friend’s house where a bunch of you came together. So I typically talk about that. I also mentioned that you’re doing a lot of hiking. Interestingly people usually follow up with, are they still really active? I think that’s fun for you to know that the brand that you have is one of being physically active. I think this is a great chance for me to tell you how proud of you and Mom that makes me. To know that’s what you’re known for and to know that not only are you still physically active but how well it served you just in your quality of life right now.
Patrick:
Oh my gosh, well, you have such a good memory of some various things that I’ve been doing on this side of this conversation. And it really has kind of inspired me to stay active because it’s important to us that you’re proud of your parents, that if somebody says, well, what are your parents doing now? You don’t say, well, gee, I don’t know. Where do you wanna go to lunch? And you just changed the conversation. So, that was very nice to hear. Thank you.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. What did I leave out or what did I get wrong? Anything you’d like to clarify for me?
Patrick:
Well, I’m no longer on the Governor’s Advisory Council for People with Disabilities. You know, there comes a time on some of these committees that you have to recognize that your time is done. You enjoyed the engagement, but you need to hand the reins off to somebody else that is active in the business community. And it’s their turn. And that’s fine. And that’s the way it should be. I think, too. really emphasize what we’re doing now is a major project, which is this transition from our home into senior living. And Mom and I have become very involved, both from a personal standpoint, as well sharing with some friends what we’re going through. So, empathetically, they might identify with some of the things that we’re addressing. and it might help them maybe make some of their decisions. But we’re fortunate because of this transition has a couple of months. And so day by day, we’re trying to figure out what to keep. We’re trying to communicate with you what you might want so that we don’t just take everything to the Arc or to Goodwill. And you say, what do you mean you gave away that? That old typewriter that might be worth $500. And so that’s what we’ve embraced right now. And it’s exciting. And it certainly makes us have conversations and what is sort of curious, we’re fixing up the house because we’re gonna have to sell it here soon. And so we’re really cleaning everything up, making sure the molding along the floor is nice and polished. And we wonder, why didn’t we do this sooner when we were living here? It’s kind of funny. You clean everything up when you’re ready to hand it off to somebody else.
Amy:
Isn’t that one of the most tragic things you realize? You’re like, oh, this looks really good. And you enjoy what you have even more.
Patrick:
Now, when people ask us, what is your daughter Amy doing?
Amy:
Hmm.
Patrick:
That is really a challenge for us because you are so multifaceted. And so I’m looking forward to your summary here in a minute or two, when you capsulize all your various projects. But with pride, we say that you are in Florida. You have just completed a Chief of Staff position that was very challenging at Citrix, which is a large IT company in Fort Lauderdale. And after two, three years of that particular assignment, you are now on your own. You have a website called Nobody Makes It Alone that is so intriguing to us because you are very honest on some of these blogs there on what’s going on in your life. And that is a huge connection to us on what you’re thinking about. And on one of your earlier blogs, you had mentioned that Nobody mMkes It Alone that the genesis of that was to communicate with your parents. And now that has expanded. It’s just so fascinating to me to see things that are important to you and what resonates with you and quite frankly, what a deep thinker you are.
Amy:
Mm-hmm. Ha ha.
Patrick:
I say it with jest, I think does Amy have my DNA? She’s a much deeper thinker than I am. So hopefully, Mom’s chromosomes were the dominant factor in your education. So let me throw it back to you. What four different things or more going on for you now simultaneously?
Amy:
Yeah, and I have adopted a label that’s fairly popular right now in the work world called a portfolio career, which is essentially that. It’s all these different things that are in the portfolio. And I feel really lucky. I’ve had some incredible opportunities to grow and to do different things. Biggest pattern in my career that I’ve seen is I got to build things. Often times, there’s a difference between a person who likes to build things and a person who likes to run things. And I would place my pattern in the build things. And so what that meant was creating roles that had never been done before and getting to pave the way. And so right now, I’m creating a business. Learning how to do that. And there’s one thing that’s very clear in this path, which is, are you creating a business or are you creating a job? And I did not come up with that. That’s kind of the on-going wisdom out there. Is it a business or is it a job? And I’m right there at that inflection point. Do I want to run a business or do I want a job? And so a lot of that has to do with, am I the person doing all the work? Or are there others or are there other streams of work and income that don’t involve me and my time being exactly in alignment? So it’s a little bit of consulting. It’s a little bit of Coaching, both Change Coaching for practitioners who are doing some of the things I did earlier in my career and just helping them succeed. It’s a bit of Life Coaching. So for people who are trying to do things like find more balance or figure out what their second chapter is in their own careers or who want to show up with more courage or even how did they get to their next thing. So there’s some Life and Leadership Coaching in there. And you know, most of all, I’m just looking at time differently. One of my friends. said this to me the other week and I just held on to it like a mantra: you can do anything you want but you can’t do everything you want. And so right now I’m really learning what that means, which often times right now in my portfolio means saying no to some things that are really, really interesting. But my priority is just to have enough time to not work all the time, really.
Patrick:
Say your mantra again for me.
Amy:
You can do anything you want, but you can’t do everything you want.
Patrick:
Oh, I like that. What a great feedback. And I wrote down portfolio career. I want to remember that. And I want to emphasize to our listeners, even though we’re talking on some personal issues here, we we hope that they’ll reflect in their own relationship between the generations in their family. And do they kind of know what each other is doing? And that might make some fun conversations. especially at holiday times when you’re around the table. And you say what’s your elevator speech, youngest child? What are you doing? Where are you going to be in one year? Because sometimes we might assume what that other generation is up to. But I speculate that it might be superficial. So maybe prompting, and I’m speaking to myself here, to maybe take it a little bit deeper when the opportunity presents itself. And then I need to express some really appreciation to the fact that we’re able to do these podcasts. Amy, this is pretty neat between a daughter who is late 40s and a dad who’s late 70s. This relationship phase is certainly new. Like the experience I’m having that when technology doesn’t work and the challenges we then have to troubleshoot those things. It really is pretty fun. Even though I get a little bit nervous before we go on the air, but that’s okay.
Amy:
It’s been so fun. I agree, Dad, just in having the space to do it. I consider these podcasts as one of the streams in my portfolio career as well. Just really being able to learn how podcasts work – I think you and I equally knew as Little as the other when we started. So to be able to find a new project – something that we were able to both start from the beginning of our learning journey has been really amazing. And I think we’ve gotten to know each other in a different way. And we had an experience yesterday that I just want to confess and you felt it, but we had a technical issue. And I thought it was your technical issue. I made an assumption that it was you. And I think you tried to troubleshoot it for about four minutes. and then pointed out something on our technology that I then checked, thank goodness, because it was me, it wasn’t you that was having the technical challenge. So it’s also been very humbling and to be very much equals on this field and just to have fun and encourage each other as we grow and learn. So I agree. And I think that gets back to this idea of knowing each other and staying engaged with your parents and staying engaged with your kids. And sometimes it’s not just a phone call to check in, it’s in experiences. So whether that’s traveling or coming up with something to start at the beginning with each other, it’s pretty neat to just see what other options show up when you start to get creative.
Patrick:
We are so lucky that we have been able to have these additional technology tools – like we’ve been able to really connect up with FaceTime on Sundays. Grandson Nolan, bless his heart, is calling Mom on a regular basis on a Sunday evening. and they just chat away and that’s just super. So we’ve been very fortunate that way. I’m curious, what do your peers, how are they involved with their parents?
Amy:
Yeah, it’s a really great question. And stepping back to observe a couple of things strike me. One is that at this stage in the game, not all parent-child relationships are great. As I mentioned at the beginning, there’s a lot of water under the bridge and in many situations there hasn’t been healing. And so I’m so grateful that it has not been the case with us. But just realizing that this conversation that we’re having may not apply to or be interesting to some who have a little bit more of a broken relationship between them. But some of my highlights of what friends do, one of my friends travels with her 80 plus year old mom and they travel all over the world. They’ve done everything from go to Africa last summer to hike with the gorillas. to seeing polar bears, to visiting Iceland. They always have some major adventure together. And it’s just them. So that’s really interesting. Another friend, those who live in close proximity tend to do regular Sunday meals together, where it’s just expected that you’re having a meal together every Sunday. There’s other items, people who actually work with their parents. I think that’s such an interesting dynamic. So whether the business was handed off to them or they actually started it together, whole other episode we could dig into there about how that works. But some really interesting, interesting things. I think those are the three situations that stand out to me where I’ve stepped back and kind of marveled with amazement about. This intentionality to either make regular commitments and develop a ritual of some type, or to really just explore and enjoy each other.
Patrick:
Let’s talk technology real quick.
Amy:
OK
Patrick:
Do you think that the parents and the child are utilizing technology as best they can? Or is that really an area that you see in our relationship and also with your friends that should be utilized a little bit better? And let me jump in real quick. because I think that we had some good conversations, audio conversations, and now we’re doing more of the video, the FaceTime. And it is so much more meaningful and it’s so much more fun when you actually see each other. And I think for a while, we didn’t utilize that to the extent that we should have. So what would your take be at this juncture?
Amy:
Well, I think you’re further ahead than I am on technology. You know, sometimes even I’ll call you just audio and you’ll say, Hey, call me back on FaceTime. So I think you’re just on the adoption curve with technology. You’re ahead of me. I think the other thing that’s interesting is how it’s assisting one of the hypotheses I have about your use of FaceTime and your desire to use it is. You’ve had some hearing loss and so your ability to see lips or to see expressions I think helps with the context of being able to understand what the person is saying. Is that true?
Patrick:
Oh, very much, without a doubt. And I think most of us might not fully realize, but we utilize body language and read lips more than we might realize – irrespective of if there’s any hearing issues. But I think seeing someone’s body language adds a significant dimension. And it’s fun to have a couple of little sign language signs that you can hold up when you’re doing a video. That really makes it fun.
Amy:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How do you think we’re doing with technology? Anything you’d like to see us try?
Patrick:
Well, I think that there was some difficulty for a while in that Apple and in the PC world weren’t real compatible. I think that is becoming something that does work together better as it relates to texting and sending pictures. I think most of us probably lean towards being more visual than hearing. So I think having the ability to have a picture and to send it to somebody on email or in a text is really fun. It’s not a conversation. It’s something that the other person can pick up at their convenience. It just can be so special. Sometimes when I’m trying to clean up my photo albums, I’ll see a picture from two, three years ago like when we were at the top of Vail, and it’s so much fun to grab that and send it to you. Just kind of random.
Amy:
I’ve really appreciated you sending the random photos. The bits and bytes of memories and seeing those pop up and the collage. Oftentimes I’ve wondered, he’s sending photos that cross five, six, seven years in difference and so it’s so fun just to see them all in one place and sometimes there’s a funny meme that also comes. But it’s neat to know what struck you that day as something to share.
Patrick:
Well, there’s no deep thought. It’s just something that, oh, there’s a fun photo. Well, let’s talk about some of the major life decisions that the older generation is making, in particular, us. How involved are you? Do we involve you to a good extent? Should we ask your permission to do things?
Amy:
No, the quick answer to that is absolutely no. No. I can’t imagine that. I can’t think of anybody whose parents ask them for permission. Maybe that’s different if for some reason I was worried about your mental fitness. But thankfully, you all are of very sound mind and body. So I figure this is your time to do all the things that are going to make your life as special as it possibly can be. And you have the freedom. to do it. So I love seeing what you all are deciding. I love hearing about new friends, new adventures. Absolutely.
Patrick:
And probably some of the situations that is not our case is when the younger generation, when the children are taking the initiative to making decisions. And I would think usually when there’s just one parent that is still alive, and possibly they might need help. It can be difficult for them to realize it’s time to sell the house and make the move. And we did that with my mother when she was in California, your Grandmother, and we had to say, Mom, it’s time to sell the house and move you to Colorado. So I think it really it’s not us asking permission of you. I think sometimes the kids – for the good of the older adult – when they really need to take the initiative. And obviously, that’s a pretty tricky situation.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely. I bet that was very hard. And you know, it’s just what you learn to appreciate in your parents’ existence once you finally get to the age where some of these decisions were being made. You know, I was, I think in high school when that particular decision happened and had no idea the stress that must have put on you. But to be where you were then, I see you in a very different light. And I’m sure it will happen by the time I’m in my late 70s, I’ll finally realize, oh, this is what they were going through. So, I think that’s a beautiful piece of having close relationships. I saw a picture a couple months ago and it was at a baby shower, my baby shower. and seeing Mom be similar in age to where I am now, it was the strangest experience to feel like life was sort of catching up and that I was kind of lapping her in some ways and just to realize there were things that she was thinking about doing that I’m doing right now. But she was doing them back then and I just had no idea. What life was really like for her at that time.
Patrick:
That’ll be fun to share with her later today. What I do like is that we are making some significant decisions with this transition to a senior living facility. What I appreciate is the ability to run things by you for your feedback, not for permission necessarily, but for – I don’t know – if you’re a third party per se, but you’re certainly outside of the immediate situation. It helps to seek your confirmation or healthy questions of did you think of this, did you think of that, and I think that that really is good for us when we’re going through some of these issues.
Amy:
That’s good. Well, I’m glad to be that, whatever I am, third party. I don’t think I’m neutral, but a different perspective who’s not real close to it. Well, Dad, I think this is a good place for us to just celebrate the fact that asking some questions and just making some space to learn about each other a little bit better or differently was really, really nice. So I hope that others find opportunities to do what we just did, ask some open-ended questions, maybe explore some topics. that you haven’t explored before.
Patrick:
Well, and I don’t think it’s difficult, if you just say, okay, well, let’s try this discussion today. This was much easier than I thought it might have been. It was fun.
Amy:
I agree. Well, we always close with some gratitude. So in addition to being grateful for this time to have this conversation, is there anything else top of mind that you are grateful for today?
Patrick:
Oh my gosh, there’s so much. First of all, I’ll mention two things. First of all, we had a glorious five inches of wet snow 24 hours ago, and oh, it was just so good, and Colorado needed it. But more importantly, I had a problem with my car door, and this is an older car, and I’m determined to drive it. until it no longer runs. Dave Ramsey calls it a beater. And this window would not work. And our neighbor said, Pat, let’s let me see if I can fix it. And so this neighbor ordered the part. He took it apart. He took the panel off the inside of the car and the inside of these automobiles where windows work. is just incredible. There are wires and gears and everything. And this neighbor spent at least three to four hours working on this, and he fixed it. And I just, I am so appreciative, and I’m sure if I had taken it to Maaco to fix it, they would have said, well, we’ll just order a new door, and it’ll be a thousand dollars, and there you go. So now my challenge is I need to pay it forward in a significant way. I will gladly do that.
Amy:
That is outstanding. What a gesture of support and perseverance. And I do think this whole giving kindness into the world, it is contagious. So good for your neighbor and good for you. You know, accepting help is also sometimes hard to do.
Patrick:
Well, what’s your gratitude before we close?
Amy:
Let’s see, you know, my gratitude is just health and safety. And that sounds so baseline Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, but we received an immense unprecedented amount of rain in Fort Lauderdale. I’m sure many people saw that on the news headlines. But just really glad that we weren’t flooded out of our home, and just a lot of prayers for those who were. But it’s amazing how things can change quickly and just realizing also that our power to affect it isn’t always in our control. So that’s what I’m grateful for.
Amy:
This is a podcast about aging. It’s actually a podcast about living. So get out there and live life well. We’ll talk to you next time.