Episode Description
Reverend Fawn Mikel is a pastor with the United Methodist Church. She spoke with us about how faith evolves as we age. Her observations and ‘companionship’ with us through this conversation are everything I adore about her. Judgement-free, she speaks about the role of our faith community, soul and spirit in our life’s journey now and into the beyond.
“You know, I wanted to serve like Jesus would at serving. And oh, I was really failing that one big time, I felt like. Until finally I just said, okay, so God, this is up to you and you tell me. So I think that’s where my faith has grown the most the last few years of older adulthood.”
FAWN MIKEL
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Transcript
Patrick:
Hello, welcome. I’m Pat Going.
Amy:
And I’m Amy Going Haworth.
Patrick:
And this is a podcast about aging from the perspectives of two generations. This podcast tackles what we’re talking about as it relates to living life well.
Amy:
And it seeks to bring the conversations we’re having as parent and child into the open so that we can all learn together.
Amy:
We are thrilled to be here with Pastor Fawn Mikel (“Michael”). And did I say it right? It’s “Michael”, right?
Fawn M Mikel:
Yeah, we all say it differently. The rich side of the family says “Michael”, the poor of us poor ones say “Mikkel”. Doesn’t matter.
Amy:
Well, Fawn, I am just so grateful to see you again. It’s been many years, and there’s a joke that my dad and I have. I always cry in these episodes and the tears are coming a little early this time for me, and it’s just out of pure joy to see you again. You’re just such a special person in my life.
So Fawn is a pastor with United Methodist Church and for several years, at a very key point in my life, she was my pastor at the church we were part of in Fort Lauderdale.
Fawn has since moved to North Carolina, and we’re gonna be talking today about how our faith evolves as we age.
And Fawn, I would just first love to be a little selfish and catch up and hear what you’re up to now and tell us about the congregation you’re part of and just what’s happening in life.
Fawn M Mikel:
So my husband says I flunked retirement in a big way because I retired on June 30th, two years ago, and I took a little bitty church in the mountains on July the 1st.
In North Carolina especially, there is a church almost on every corner and in every valley and on every mountain. It just seems that we have a lot of churches. And most of the churches these days are small churches. I mean that’s just kind of a universal thing.
So they were in desperate need — must have been — of help and so they asked me if I would take on this little church. And I honestly believe it’s one of the greatest blessings I’ve ever had.
I loved our church in Florida, that’s where I met Amy, but it was a church of thousands. It was a like that.
So now I’m in with 18 people. We have a congregation or membership of 18 people. We average 16 to 18 people every Sunday. We do have a couple of people right now that are not coming hardly at all because one of them has moved into a nursing home and one of them has a lot of health issues. So yeah, so we’re missing them a whole lot. And I’m the youngest person there which I think is just so darn cool.
So yeah, I feel like the kid, you know, the kid in the club. So yeah, so I’m loving it. I’m loving it. And I wasn’t really ready to hang up the collar yet. but also at the same time was really tired of all the church politics and that kind of stuff. So this has been a real blessing.
Amy:
What an extraordinary opportunity it sounds like. So are you the single pastor?
Fawn M Mikel:
I am it baby. I mean I am it. No, but I don’t have to ask anybody questions anymore. I am the pastor and sometimes the janitor and sometimes I’m the cook. It’s just whatever has to be done. But I have a lot to say about everybody else because this most incredible thing is everybody participates in the life of the church. There are no free loaders in our church.
Amy:
Yeah, with 18 you can’t hide.
Fawn M Mikel:
No, you sure can’t. That’s right. Used to be, and when I knew you, Amy, I was told that everybody hated it when I would call and say, would you be willing to do lunch with me one day this week? Because then I was gonna ask you if you would be up to doing something. So now they just know when I walk in the door. On the other hand of that, and I think this is one of the cool things, is that recently we had a church-wide meeting, which was the first one in two years. And it was because they wanted to know how they could do more things in the church.
Amy:
Wow.
Fawn M Mikel:
They called the meeting, not me. So that was pretty cool. So
Amy:
What a beautiful chapter of your journey as a pastor to see not having to pull people along.
Fawn M Mikel:
Right.
Amy:
But having people all-in and what a special congregation it sounds like.
Fawn M Mikel:
They are.
Fawn M Mikel:
They’re great.
Amy:
And courageous and doing some amazing things, no doubt. Well how did you, tell us how you got to be a pastor.
Fawn M Mikel:
It was not a first career choice. I was one of those kind of late bloomers and that I grew up in a church as a child where I could teach Sunday school or I could be the church secretary and those were going to be my options and so because of that I really did not have a deep understanding of everyone being called to be in ministry.
And it wasn’t until my husband and I married and we had two children that were brought into the marriage from my husband’s first marriage and then we had a third child together. And I’m knowing we need to get into the church, we need to get involved. And so it just kind of happened going to this church, this United Methodist Church.
And I started hearing about how every person has been created for ministry and that blew me away. And so I started doing a, kind of got off the fence a little bit more, started participating in the church a little bit more.
And I went to a year-long Bible study that read through the whole Bible, and that was kind of what did it for me. My best friend at the time, who also had kind of really been a huge part of my faith journey, what I told her, I said, I think I’ve been called into the ministry. And I was a pretty colorful human being. My biggest fear was I’d have to wear a suit someday because I’m no sign of a suit kind of gal.
And so, yeah, so when I told her that, she said, “you know, when people fall in love with Jesus, they all think they’re called into ministry. So just take two aspirin, lay down for a year, and it’ll go away.” And that’s kind of what I did. And until finally I realized this really was a calling.
And so at the age of 35, I went back to school and started seminary and my husband was very supportive. My kids put up with it. They just begged me not to ever preach and cause they heard all that they already wanted to hear. And yeah, so that was kind of how I ended up there. And I’m so glad I did. I’m so glad I finally understood that, you know, I had, I had a… a purpose.
And that I could answer that purpose.
Amy:
Yeah, and to see what’s on the other side of that, which takes a lot of obedience every day to show up for all of that..
Fawn M Mikel:
For all of us, doesn’t it? I mean, you know, yeah, for all of us, we all have to have a lot of obedience every day.
But I’ll tell you one of the greatest things I’ve learned in all this is that the church and faith are so different.
And my husband’s one that really kind of would grab me every once in a while on my crazy days, you know, when you’re working the all hours of the day and night and you’re going to meeting after meeting and he’d say, “so now today are we practicing churchianity or are you practicing your faith?” And I would go, “oh I don’t like you”. You know, because so often it’s easy for us to chase the church, especially as a pastor I think, but learning about my faith was a really different story.
Amy:
What a different focus and just even what you notice in your day in making that decision. Wisdom
Fawn M Mikel:
Wisdom.
Amy:
…From a great teammate there.
Pat:
I have a quick question. I don’t want to get off track here, but you had mentioned the Bible study that you got involved in, and that was so significant for you to really have a new take on everything. And you said that was actually a year long Bible study.
Fawn M Mikel:
Yeah, it was called in the United Methodist Church. We they oh gosh. This is now probably 35 years old Disciple Bible study.
Fawn M Mikel:
They have done several after that where they but the first one the red book if anybody’s ever done it goes through the whole Bible and you really end up reading about 80% of the Bible over that time period and Now, since then, I couldn’t even tell you how many of those classes I’ve led, because I felt like it was so important that…
I grew up as a Baptist and I love the Baptist Church, and I gotta tell you, I learned Scripture as a Baptist. And we Methodists aren’t real good at that. So that was one of the things that… it had been a long time since I’d opened my Bible and really read it. And I think that was just huge for me is reading that and then as an adult reading it differently than we do as a child because there were things in there that I was astonished at. I mean when I found out about David and Bathsheba I was like “oh my gosh we’re all doomed” so yeah it was it was really a blessing for me to be able to do that experience that.
Amy:
Do you, and that’s such a great segue into one of the questions that I have been thinking about as knowing we were coming up to this conversation is, you know, in your role as pastor, one of the very unique things that comes with that role is seeing so many different age demographics all at once. And that might mean sitting in seats listening to a sermon, even thinking about you walking through cookies and punch after a sermon. It’s just you cross so many different people. I think that’s so unique in terms of an occupation. My world and the corporate sector, it’s a very small slice of humanity at a time, but it’s so different. You get all slices all at once. I think about the uniqueness of that viewpoint. What have you noticed about what faith means to people at different places in their life?
Fawn M Mikel:
You know, I wish we could all go back to having the faith of a child because it’s just so simple. Everybody’s in, everybody’s included, everybody’s wanted, everybody’s loved. And they just can look at God in such a simple way.
And I have told the story a million times about being in one of my first churches and on Sunday mornings, when we would do communion, one of the grandmothers who was raising her granddaughter would not allow her granddaughter to d it. Her granddaughter’s name was Faith, by the way, which I always thought was so perfect for this child. But she would not allow her to take communion.
She was probably about four years old. So I finally asked her about that because in our, in my denomination, we allow that because we say all all who want to come to know Jesus are welcome at the table.
So Faith would come up and I would usually bless her, but she would never take communion. So I talked to Grandma about it and so sure enough the next time we had communion, Faith put her hands out to take the communion bread and I was just so excited for her because she was so excited about it.
Several months went by and our grandmother came to me one day and she said, “I don’t know what you’re doing to my kid, but I gotta tell you what she did to me.”
And I said, “what’s that?”
She said, “well, we went to church at, we went after church to McDonald’s and Faith said, “Mimi feed me like Pastor Fawn does.” And she said, I’m trying to think of what have y’all been having in Sunday school or vacation Bible school and couldn’t figure it out. And finally she grabbed her grandmother’s hands and she put them out and she took French fries and she put it in her hand and she said, “‘God loves you.'”
Amy:
Oh.
Fawn M Mikel:
And, all I could think of, I mean, I still get teary-eyed because I thought the simplicity of a child understanding something that in all honesty, none of us really understand when we start talking about communion and the Transubstantiation and all the stuff that we all talk about. But, but this child got it, that something as simple as that can be love.
So I wish we could all go there, but I’ve discovered something.
I have discovered something over the years.
I’ve discovered that children, by the time they reach elementary school and their parents, their faith is usually very similar. So if the parents have a strong faith, the child will have a strong faith. If the parents make, put their faith as a number one priority, the child will often put their faith as a number one priority.
However, at the same time, in our day of soccer games and tournaments and all those kinds of things, then when we put it on the back shelf, well, kids do that pretty quickly too. Then I’ve discovered something between teenagers and 20, 30-year-olds, young, I would say young adults and older people. And that is, I think they all want it to matter. That it’s not about the institute, well for older people the institution is pretty important, but they want it to have purpose. It can’t just be anymore a place to be. It’s got to have meaning and purpose. because otherwise they can find purpose with other people.
Amy:
Hmm.
Fawn M Mikel:
So for older people, sometimes we put our emphasis on our family and that becomes it. But on the whole, I see most older people, community is so important to them. And after their family, actually, the church community is usually the one that supports them and encourages them. younger people, they want to make sure they have a purpose. That’s why you can’t just talk it, you’ve got to walk it. And so, and I’m discovering more and more that I think even as we age, we want to have purpose too. So we want to make a difference to somebody and not just, it’s not just about us anymore. You know, what feeds me, it’s about what do I need to do to feed somebody else?
Pat:
Hmm.
Amy:
That is so interesting. And just, you know, of course, as I am listening to you kind of think through that or just share your observations, I’m applying it to myself, you know. It’s just even thinking about my own faith. Did it follow my parents as I was a kid? Is my son’s faith following my model? And that is so interesting. And then clearly like this search for purpose. and even thinking about some of the ways that my faith came alive through some of the opportunities that you were so much a part of at the church in Florida, which was Serve Everybody, you know, these week-long events where we were out in the community, seemingly making an impact, even if we perceived we were. At least we were putting our time and efforts in certain places. just this overwhelming theme that continues to echo of, we wanna leave something behind. We wanna know that we mattered and how much it all ages. That’s part of, I think, how we were created as human beings to show up in this space.
Pat:
I was going to say that my wife and I, Fawn, were headed for a brand new senior living complex that’s being built. And it’ll have 170 independent living apartments, which will represent probably close to 250 people. It’s kind of an offshoot of the Presbyterian Church here in town. And so as you’re talking, I anticipate that there’s going to be a very active group in things like this Bible study and so forth. It might really be a major activity and I’m hopeful, especially being brand new, we can really set the pattern and maybe influence some of these things and maybe that’ll be my purpose.
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh wow, that would be awesome. I think that’s a great thing that you’re talking about to be able to be a part of. Yeah, what an opportunity y’all have to be in that type of a community and then to be able to bleed in that kind of community.
Pat:
We’ll keep you posted.
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh, I can’t wait to hear. I can’t wait to hear.
Pat:
We’ll send you pictures too.
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh dude, okay, there you go. I’m expecting you out on your balcony like with your muumuu on and your Hawaiian shirt for Hawaiian night.
Amy:
Kind of like a cruise ship, right?
Fawn M Mikel:
Where you go exactly. That’s exactly. Yeah, because we have a wonderful place down in South Florida that I used to love to go visit the best coffee of anybody in town. And yeah, I just thought and they had great faith based opportunities, which I thought was great. So yeah, I think that is really cool, especially if it’s coming being based from a church.
Pat:
Yes.
Fawn M Mikel:
Yeah,
Amy:
That’ll be so interesting. It’s fun to hear you say that, Dad, just different things that sort of light you up and get you interested, because I think there will be a lot of things, but to even think about what does it mean to nurture all different parts of yourself. On this podcast, we’ve talked a lot about physical health. We haven’t talked as much about mental health, and this is sort of our first dip into spiritual health and wellbeing, but it’s fun for me to know that might be something that you put some time into.
Pat:
Well, it’s such an opportunity because everything is brand new. Yeah. And, you know, new friendships, it really, it should be a very, it should be very dynamic and the people we have met so far tend to be really quite accomplished and seemingly everybody’s looking forward to it. So we’ll, yeah, we’ll have to fly you out to be a guest speaker.
Amy:
There you go.
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh, I would have so much fun. Y’all would probably get rid of me pretty fast though, because you never know what’s gonna come out of my mouth. So yeah, I could get in trouble pretty quickly.
Amy:
Have you seen your own faith evolve as you’ve, because it sounded like when you were telling your story, kind of three plus decades in ministry. Is that true? Okay.
Fawn M Mikel:
Yep. Oh, that’s a great question. You know, I’ll tell you some of the things I’ve thought of.
My life verse has always been “Be still and know that I am God” from Psalm 46:10, because it is very hard for me to be still. I’ve always had a very high energy level. So I’m one of these, and I’m a cheerleader. I’m not a cheerleader. I was never a cheerleader. I could never, I never had long enough hair to bounce it around. But I had this desire to encourage. I’ve always had this desire to encourage people. And so getting still, one of the senior pastor that Amy and I worked know very well, he would always tell me he would get up at five o’clock in the morning and he would pray and do his meditation for two hours. And I would go, oh God, kill me. You know, there’s no way I can ever do that. I know I would try so hard because I thought that was being a good Christian. And so when I was 63 years old, I got a tattoo. I don’t know if you can even see this. It says, “still”. Now my children think I’m going through a midlife crisis, I guess, because Grams is now tatting herself.
And I now have two more, so hey, there may be a little truth in that.
Uh, so, but, I think for me, what I realize is that I wanted so bad to be still, but it wasn’t my character a whole lot. And so I think, God finally has me in that place as I’ve gotten older, that I don’t feel as frantic and as anxious. And now I kind of look at life and say, you know, tomorrow’s still gonna happen. You know, it’s funny, because every time I would change churches, I would just know that church was gonna fall apart as soon as I left. And it would be amazing how within six weeks, I’d find that everything was going just fine. And I’m going, well, what do you mean everything’s going just fine?
So I think that as we get older, we just kind of have this understanding that we’re not the All-in-all, but I know the All-in-all. And so I’ve been able to rely on that a whole lot more. And I’m still as busy, I think, as I’ve ever been, but I’m stopping more now. I don’t feel the pressure anymore. I feel like, yeah, that can wait. I can tomorrow or I can work in the garden tomorrow. But today, I just, my soul needs to sit on the front porch and read or just sit there and take in the beauty that I’m surrounded by all the time.
I also think I’ve learned a lot more to enjoy the small things, not look so hard for the big stuff. You know, we all, I think all of us, whether we are people of Christian faith or whatever faith it is, but we, I think we believe in this different higher power, if you want to call it that, when we have the birth of a child or something wonderful and magnificent happens in our presence. But now I’m starting to see just the incredible thought process that God could ever have when I’m watching a bear walk down behind my house. And I’m thinking, this is his space, not mine. I can’t get mad at it for being here. And so instead, I’m just going to take it in. I’m just going to enjoy it. And then I think, so because I’ve also become a lot more gracious to myself.
Fawn M Mikel:
I’m always quick to be graceful to everybody else and tell everybody, you know, God loves you and it’s okay. And you know, you’re going to be fine and He’s going to hold you up. He’s going to give you strength. But, it’s always hard for me to hear from me. And so my husband now has a lot of disabilities. And so that was probably the hard, has been the hardest thing for me because I never felt like I was getting it right.
You know, I wanted to serve like Jesus would at serving. And oh, I was really failing that one big time, I felt like. Until finally I just said, okay, so God, this is up to you and you tell me. So I think that’s where my faith has grown the most the last few years of older adulthood, you know, of aging a little bit.
Amy:
And what a beautiful depiction of things that you don’t know are coming, but you arrive at this space where you’re out of the tools. There’s no playbook for that. And so really being in a place where you have to rely on God. And even as… You know, I always think about pastors must feel inherent pressure of everyone thinking that you do have it all figured out, you know? And so to be able to share that witness of, you know, I don’t, I’m a human being and we’re all working on this journey of what does it really mean to surrender.
Fawn M Mikel:
Yeah, it’s hard. You know, it’s hard to getting old, isn’t it, Pat? It’s not for sissies. Everybody says it, and now that I’m experienced, I’m going, oh, you got that one right, you know? But I also think there’s some freedom in it. You know, there’s freedom in it. I am learning to probably speak intimately with people about my faith more than I’ve ever been able to. Because if they think I’m just an old crazy woman, that’s fine. But before, I could do it in front of Thousand people but to do it one-on-one with one of my grandchildren is very different
Pat:
Hmm.
Fawn M Mikel:
You want your grandchildren to love you and trust you and believe in you and not say roll their eyes that you know There she goes again.
Amy:
I just think one of the things that you have demonstrated over and over in my life is it’s not only words, but so much more the actions. And those decisions are made in a moment. Like you were talking about in the moments are these places of faith, both to demonstrate it, but to also live it and really kind of pause and be like, what do I believe or what belief is going to lead my next action, my next word, my next move? But I know those grandkids are watching probably even more than they’re listening.
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh yeah, sure, for sure.
Amy:
Dad, you know, I’m really curious one thing that you and I didn’t talk about so, you know, I’m putting you on the spot a little bit, but how do you think your faith has changed? I mean, we haven’t, we’ve talked about a lot of things, but we haven’t really talked deeply about that aspect of what aging has been like for you.
Pat:
Well, I’m still searching, and we have not been a consistent attendee of a church. I really am intrigued by this whole Bible study, and I want to know more. I think there’s some curiosity, and I hope it’s not just because I’m 79 years old and I’m thinking that we’re all going to die. And you know, I don’t want that to be the motivator. I want it to be knowledge and depth. And like you said, Fawn, really the meaning of being here. So I think repeating myself, I think I’m on a search path right now. And I think that there are some opportunities that are opening up that are very exciting. And I think Carol and I will be able to take advantage of that. So. That’s a quick summary.
Fawn M Mikel:
You know, Pat, don’t sell yourself short for not feeling like you might do it for the right reason because there’s no right reason or wrong reason.
Pat:
Okay.
Fawn M Mikel:
So I think that’s really important for us to know is that, you know, sometimes I look at something not because I’m really curious about it, but because… I want to prove it’s wrong. You know what I mean? I’ll be really honest about that, you know? So, yeah, I think just curiosity is a great reason to look into anything anytime we want, so, yeah.
Amy:
And just, I think it’s so fun to just, this whole idea of continuing to learn. And, you know, stimulus comes from all different places at all different times. And I just love you, Dad, for following up on it, you know, to never be like, well, that ship has sailed or I don’t want to do it for the wrong reason or whatever. But it’s like, well, this is interesting. Let’s go learn something. And those opportunities are just continue to make life so rich and interesting. So I think that’s exciting and fun.
Fawn M Mikel:
I agree.
Amy:
Well, we love to end our podcast, Fawn, with just some gratitude. And I didn’t really tell you that. So I’m going to give you some time to think. And I’ll give my dad the hot potato first to ask you, Dad, what are you grateful for today?
Pat:
I’m grateful really how these podcasts are coming together, Amy. It, you know, we sort of went into, well, I’ll speak for myself, really didn’t know where this path was going to take us. And it is turning out to just really be kind of fascinating. And, you know, with no modesty, I think we’ve been able to come up with a couple of really good podcasts. And we have some friends, Fawn, that we prompted to listen to the podcast and, gee, they’ve given us some nice feedback. And so that’s my gratitude that what we have really embraced here seems to be working out so well.
Fawn M Mikel:
That’s great. That is great.
Amy:
How about you, Fawn?
Fawn M Mikel:
Oh gosh. You know, gratitude has really become my mantra the last few years. And I always, but I just feel so blessed. I am so blessed in so many ways. I’m so blessed that, you know, I have, I’ve been married 45 years to my best friend and love of my life. So blessed that I’ve got three kids and 10 grandchildren and three bonus daughters and, you know, just live in a beautiful place. I have wonderful friends. And so I think my gratitude is just that I am here that for some reason, God has brought me to this place at this time, in this moment, and that then I get to share that with people, like y’all, you know? And not only am I gonna share mine, but I get to hear yours. And I think my biggest gratitude is that we all get to live life together. And so I’m hoping that I can do that for a long, long time still.
Amy:
We’re hoping for it too, because you are a person who makes any situation better just for being there. You don’t even really even have to do anything. Just having you in the mix is going to make it better. So you are such a bright light.
And I think that’s my gratitude is for people like you, for people like my dad, who are. We just all need it. And so for everybody out there who doesn’t get down by the things that aren’t going well but show up with a sense of optimism, of hope, and don’t give up, everything can be made better. So I’m just really grateful that I have you two in my life to remind me to keep showing up. So this has been just an amazing conversation.
And I feel like I am much more aware and kind of primed to be observant of my faith as I age.
I’m excited, Dad, to hear what you discover and hear about that first Bible study you either spin up or you say yes to.
And Fawn, next time I’m in North Carolina, I really wanna come by that. amazing congregation that you’re spending time with. They sound like such an amazing group of people and it just is so perfect that you’re there.